Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: Anyone lift weights, and do meditation/qigong .etc?
I was considering starting to lift weights.
Does anyone do this ontop of things like meditation/qigong/body method?
My life just seems to ethereal right now. Probably the heaviest forces I have to move are when I am peddling on my bike lol.
I purchased the "Zen Warrior Exercises" by Martin Faulks which involved tensing various muscles, but honestly, I'd rather just do that in the gym with more movement and repititions, and leave all the subtle stuff to more (IMO) developed systems such as the JG's body method and LMG's stuff.
Reading "The 9 laws of empowerment" by LMG, says some things about exercise...
Anyway, is lifting weight a good way to get energy into the muscles and then relax them?
Don't want to lift weights only to make my muscles tighter, and more clingly with energy. This is why I ask.
I find it supplements energy activity. There is no logical reason why energy would 'cling' to you if you had denser muscles. On the contrary, the energy would be more concentrated, free flowing, and rejuvenating.
In chinese medicine (includes qi gong), western type exercise is bad for you, you lose a lot of chi that way ie, sweating, etc. This is why they prefer soft exercise ie. tai chi...You don't see much qi gong master with big muscles Best not to mix the two type of exercise...
If you decide to do both, you would need a lot of qi gong to make up for the loss of qi during the western type exercise. _________________ Lord Himuro Gemma
But how many "eastern" Tai Chi masters do you think could kick the crap out of an MMA practicioner?
I've never heard of it actually happening.
Besides cultivating Qi is all about breathing and the cardiovascular system, which "western" exercise is all about enhancing.
Sure you might lose more "Qi" doing western exercises since they physically demand more energy than slow moving gentle exercises, but doing them would increase your maximum capacity for "Qi" by improving your cardiovascular health far more than slow exercises. _________________
Well, that's because they understand correctly that the sort of power that goes well beyond muscular strength comes from the internal organs and tendons.
Thusly, I know t'aiji masters who can lift MORE weights with their cocks and balls than an MMA fighter could ever lift in bicep curls, to say nothing of pulling TRUCKS, buses and so on. (Look up Xi Xui Nei Kung - pronounced Shi Shwai).
Can you imagine what would happen if this level of power translates into actual combat? An MMA fighter could probably best t'aiji fighter in terms of sheer brute (muscular) force. But as far as OVERALL strength goes, that's a whole different story
With that said, there is such a thing as qi gong weightlifting. It's almost exactly the same as its western counterpart. 'Cept for the fact that you INHALE during the concentric and EXHALE during the eccentric.
It is difficult at first, but then it becomes natural and you develop a strong enough core, you will be able to lift weights (despite your relatively smaller muscles compared to bigger bodybuilders who can lift comparable loads) that will surprise everyone at the gym.
Doing it this way, you won't lose qi. You will simply convert it to jing (a more course form of qi), which the body's intelligence can always change back to qi when needed.
Well, that's because they understand correctly that the sort of power that goes well beyond muscular strength comes from the internal organs and tendons.
Tendons are part of the skeletal muscular system. Without strong tendons, you'd tear yourself apart doing intense feats of physical power.
I'll grant that the power that comes from organs is substantial seeing as how that's where fun processes like glycolysis (and plain old digestion) occur, but most MMAers I know personally, and the ones you see on TV adopt healthy lifestyles to further supplement their physical training. Things like healthy diet, not smoking etc. So I think they do understand that power comes from the internal organs.
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Thusly, I know t'aiji masters who can lift MORE weights with their cocks and balls than an MMA fighter could ever lift in bicep curls, to say nothing of pulling TRUCKS, buses and so on. (Look up Xi Xui Nei Kung - pronounced Shi Shwai).
Lifting weights with your junk is not the same as curling. When you dangle shit from your cock you're lifting with your legs and back, not with your boner muscles. This is more a demonstration of the durability of epithelial and collagen adhesion (which is ridiculously strong to begin with, let alone after training to develop increased density and calouses), and raw core and leg strength. Naturally your legs and trunk are stronger than your arms. This is essentially comparing apples to oranges.
And the pulling a truck or bus etc is the above combined with simple physics. It depends on friction mostly, of the wheel on the axel, and the wheels on the road, and really isn't impressive. A real challenge would be to have the master lift a couple thousand lbs with their cock from a high place.
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Can you imagine what would happen if this level of power translates into actual combat?
Yes, because every MMA fighter does that very thing. Brute muscular strength.
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An MMA fighter could probably best t'aiji fighter in terms of sheer brute (muscular) force. But as far as OVERALL strength goes, that's a whole different story
How do you define "overall" strength? Through obscure subjective definitions like "spiritual power"?
Because seriously, if we're talking physical power a serious MMA fighter would win hands down. Training every muscle group plus having healthy organs etc. clobbers just having healthy organs every time.
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With that said, there is such a thing as qi gong weightlifting. It's almost exactly the same as its western counterpart. 'Cept for the fact that you INHALE during the concentric and EXHALE during the eccentric.
Which is actually a method of training the cardiovascular system that they teach at my local gym. Except they call it inverse breathing during weightlifting.
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It is difficult at first, but then it becomes natural and you develop a strong enough core, you will be able to lift weights (despite your relatively smaller muscles compared to bigger bodybuilders who can lift comparable loads) that will surprise everyone at the gym.
Except when doing weightlifting exercises that have very little if anything to do with the core at all. That being said, muscular strength also depends on many factors aside from mass. Tonality of the fibres themselves and their durability increased through density and chemical restructuring. Nerve communication with increased electrochemical activation of motor neurons is another one.
Humans actually possess the ability to lift around twenty times their body weight through tetanic muscular contractions, the kind that occur during adrenalization. Increasing this neuronal activation increases strength without affecting muscle mass. It's the explanation for the strength increase in octogenarians who no longer possess the ability to build new muscle tissue.
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Doing it this way, you won't lose qi. You will simply convert it to jing (a more course form of qi), which the body's intelligence can always change back to qi when needed.
Sorry Arman, but this all just sounds like spiritual synonyms for moderately simple applications of biology and physics. This case specifically reminds me of glycolysis.
You know, one thing that frustrates me to no end about the Nei P'ai (internal schools) is that the masters are generally forbidden to divulge their real powers to the general public, and so resort to parlor tricks and reserve the "creme a la creme" for closed door students, and only to gauge progress, test, etc.
Anyway, my friend...
Qi is a physical thing though. It's not a spiritual synonym no matter how many times people use it as such, just as qi is not energy no matter how many times people interchange "qi" with "energy" (the latter being a metric of qi and not qi itself). It has mass, color, etc.
With that born in mind, I am essentially in agreement with everything you said. There IS physics and biology involved when a Nei Kung master folds two metal coins in half in the palm of his hand.
There IS physics and biology involved with a pellet shot at point blank range with a psi-force (pressure-per-square-inch, not to be confused with XM-psi ) three times the bite of a Great White Shark's doesn't so much as scratch his skin.
There IS physics and biology involved when a man lifts 330lbs with his genitals without having developed the musculature of a traditional weight lifter, or when the scrawny 74 year old Sri Chinmoy wrist curls over 250lbs-heavy dumbbell 10 times with EACH hand (20 times one's body weight, you say? How about the weight of specific body-parts like the wrist/forearm?)
It just so happens that the physics and biology behind all that (as with ALL physical activity, even something as mundane as typing this to you) happens to incorporate MORE qi, which once again is a physical phenomenon, and not how you've likely come to accept what qi is (hence coloring your understanding of what I meant by it).
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But how many "eastern" Tai Chi masters do you think could kick the crap out of an MMA practicioner?
See here's the thing: Traditionally, for one to attain mastery in Tai Chi, it's almost certain that the sister Nei Jia arts would have also been practiced and mastered to high enough levels along with it... including... "Iron Body", "Iron Palm", Xing Yi, which is internal, yes. "Soft", yes. But a MILITARY martial art, and not a "Sports"-martial art, like MMA (itself a combination of different traditional arts which, ironically, a Tai Chi or Xing Yi fighter is traditionally expected to train vigorously in and master FIRST before going for Nei Jia training for martial purposes).
There are systems derived from these "Soft" arts with one purpose: To kill anyone who dares attack you, no matter what their size or muscular strength/conditioning. An MMA fighter's "greater endurance, muscule size and conditioning" would really avail him nothing when the fight would last no more than a few seconds, in a fight that has none of the rules MMArtists are expected to abide by in a cage.
Of course going for MMA training does make one stronger, faster, more agile, improves cardio-vascular fitness etc. and to opt solely for MMA in one's martial training is ultimately one's personal business (and the fact that the "Internal" scene is laden with charlatans might impel one to pursue something more tangible and readily verifiable, which I can totally understand), but to do so on the premise that the Nei Jia are supposedly weaker systems is a big mistake.
I've personally seen a tai chi masters toss Body builders and hardcore atheletes twice the size like a wag doll...I've personally seen many many MMA (there's a famous MMA school near by) in acupuncture clinic. By western stand point they are strong and healthy, but in TCM they are not, their internal organs/fluids are weak...if these MMA focused also focused on cultivating their Qi and strengthening their internal organs, that'd be impressive...strength requires Qi... _________________ Lord Himuro Gemma
I feel that this conversation has left me somewhat behind...
While admitting that Qi can have extraordinary effects in terms of available force, I still recommend developing one's muscles and being fit.
Regardless of whats said at the end point here, you said it yourself.
"The heaviest forces I have to move are peddling my bike."
Or something along those lines...
You clearly feel that thats not enough. You clearly want more. Consider doing more, and I wouldn't worry about losing Qi via exercise. The practical benefits will become apparent, and Qi isn't exactly going to be your woman scorned. It will come back, and practices here will only help the process.
You know, one thing that frustrates me to no end about the Nei P'ai (internal schools) is that the masters are generally forbidden to divulge their real powers to the general public, and so resort to parlor tricks and reserve the "creme a la creme" for closed door students, and only to gauge progress, test, etc.
Well then why bother showing off the parlour tricks that are not only easily explained, but done in such a way that it makes the whole art look like horse puckey? Show something real, or don't show anything at all. Either one would be less damaging to credibility than showing off dumb tricks.
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Anyway, my friend...
Qi is a physical thing though. It's not a spiritual synonym no matter how many times people use it as such, just as qi is not energy no matter how many times people interchange "qi" with "energy" (the latter being a metric of qi and not qi itself). It has mass, color, etc.
I know an allopathic western doctor who happens to be Chinese and comes from a long line of healers. He told me that the concept of Qi equates to chemical energy in the body: ATP.
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With that born in mind, I am essentially in agreement with everything you said. There IS physics and biology involved when a Nei Kung master folds two metal coins in half in the palm of his hand.
There IS physics and biology involved with a pellet shot at point blank range with a psi-force (pressure-per-square-inch, not to be confused with XM-psi ) three times the bite of a Great White Shark's doesn't so much as scratch his skin.
There IS physics and biology involved when a man lifts 330lbs with his genitals without having developed the musculature of a traditional weight lifter, or when the scrawny 74 year old Sri Chinmoy wrist curls over 250lbs-heavy dumbbell 10 times with EACH hand (20 times one's body weight, you say? How about the weight of specific body-parts like the wrist/forearm?)
Well baseline average human muscular energy output is about 100 watts/m3. This can be increased to 2,000 watts/m3 temporarily in the case of tetanic contraction. Now I'm not sure what you mean by folding coins in the palm of someone's hand, but if it's bracing the edge of a coin against the inside of a knuckle and using the thenar muscle in the meaty part of your thumb to apply force, that's easily possible for someone who has physically trained for it to accomplish, especially since we throw in the possibility of so called "hysterical" strength. The ability to activate increased motor neurons is an example of biofeedback at work as well; Dennis Rogers, a strong-man biker from Texas actually does this when he bends crescent wrenches in half with just the muscles in his forearms (It takes more than 500lbs of force to do this). He's 5'9" and weighs 160, and only generates FIVE TIMES the motor neuron activity that a normal person does. A quarter of what he's humanly capable.
As to being shot with a pellet, who knows the quality of the target's skin? Callouses are pretty hard to puncture, especially with something that has easily distributed force. Coupled with a conscious control of blood flow to resist bruising (Zamora the torture king does this all the time and I'm sure you know some yogis who can as well) and this really isn't that amazing either. A feat of skin conditioning and biofeedback.
As I've said, the junk-lifting is a leg and back strength feat. You don't need the physique of a weightlifter to lift several hundred lbs in a leg press. I can lift 300 lbs with ONE leg fairly easily and I'm only beginning to get back into shape.
As to the wrist curling, this is easily within the range of reality even in an old person who happens to be in great shape and activates an increased level of motor neurons.
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It just so happens that the physics and biology behind all that (as with ALL physical activity, even something as mundane as typing this to you) happens to incorporate MORE qi, which once again is a physical phenomenon, and not how you've likely come to accept what qi is (hence coloring your understanding of what I meant by it).
And therein lies my problem with Qi. It's a spiritual word, and thus open to interpretation. This is your interpretation. I cited my friend's interpretation up there. To me, the examples you've given are relatively simple physics, biology, and even a touch of psychology. Not some quasi-mystical energy force who's definition changes from person to person, or even in the same person to support their arguments.
You agree that yes, they are examples of biology and physics, but it's Qi that makes them possible, because Qi is what makes everything possible. That doesn't strike you as a catch 22?
Could Qi itself just be a spiritual synonym for "physics"? Or maybe for "biofeedback skill"? Because that's kinda how it seems based on this conversation.
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See here's the thing: Traditionally, for one to attain mastery in Tai Chi, it's almost certain that the sister Nei Jia arts would have also been practiced and mastered to high enough levels along with it... including... "Iron Body", "Iron Palm", Xing Yi, which is internal, yes. "Soft", yes. But a MILITARY martial art, and not a "Sports"-martial art, like MMA (itself a combination of different traditional arts which, ironically, a Tai Chi or Xing Yi fighter is traditionally expected to train vigorously in and master FIRST before going for Nei Jia training for martial purposes).
There are systems derived from these "Soft" arts with one purpose: To kill anyone who dares attack you, no matter what their size or muscular strength/conditioning. An MMA fighter's "greater endurance, muscule size and conditioning" would really avail him nothing when the fight would last no more than a few seconds, in a fight that has none of the rules MMArtists are expected to abide by in a cage.
Well then say streetfighter instead of MMA fighter, or Israeli special forces commando (I mention them because they're trained to kill as fast as possible when needed). The parameters there don't really matter, what matters is that if you take two people of equal skill, and one has the physical power of an MMA champion, and the other has the physical constitution of my grandmother, regardless of how much Qi is inside the latter, they're going to be made into hamburger.
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Of course going for MMA training does make one stronger, faster, more agile, improves cardio-vascular fitness etc. and to opt solely for MMA in one's martial training is ultimately one's personal business (and the fact that the "Internal" scene is laden with charlatans might impel one to pursue something more tangible and readily verifiable, which I can totally understand), but to do so on the premise that the Nei Jia are supposedly weaker systems is a big mistake.
Well based on what you've said here, the techniques of the internal systems are fairly easy to learn biofeedback techniques. Which while amazingly effective with great potential and application, are worthless when in the hands of people who won't use them publicly for whatever reason. _________________
I've personally seen a tai chi masters toss Body builders and hardcore atheletes twice the size like a wag doll...I've personally seen many many MMA (there's a famous MMA school near by) in acupuncture clinic. By western stand point they are strong and healthy, but in TCM they are not, their internal organs/fluids are weak...if these MMA focused also focused on cultivating their Qi and strengthening their internal organs, that'd be impressive...strength requires Qi...
Okay there are some issues I have with this. Tossing people twice your size like a rag doll is very subjective, but assuming that the person is literally twice their size and they heft them several feet through the air, that's still within the bounds of human limitation I mentioned earlier.
I'm not sure how MMA fighters in acupuncture clinics is relevant here, although acupuncture is a proven science based on exciting neurons to cause the influx of different neurotransmitters to achieve its results. Also noted that that is based in biochemistry and not some sort of magic.
I can understand weak organs, those that don't do their jobs efficiently or at all, even though that is actually uncommon in MMA trainees. Not too many of them are drunks or smokers for example. But could you clarify what you mean by "weak" internal fluids? That sounds like a buzz word to justify something unproveable.
In what way does strength require Qi? If you have an MMA fighter who has "weak" Qi but he can still bench 350 lbs, how does that make him weak exactly? Or does his ability to lift 350 lbs mean he has to have strong Qi? (The catch 22 monster is rearing its head again). _________________
Well then why bother showing off the parlour tricks that are not only easily explained, but done in such a way that it makes the whole art look like horse puckey? Show something real, or don't show anything at all. Either one would be less damaging to credibility than showing off dumb tricks.
I wish you knew how wholeheartedly I agree with you, and please understand that in no way am I saying preternatural feats can't be scientifically explained, or aren't replicable in the average person (perhaps, even using technological means in the future without having someone go through years of training). It's refreshing that there is someone like you who is taking a scientific approach, for ultimately this brings an understanding that will only facilitate faster progress.
But let's say for a moment that some of these feats (thousands of dollars in flights and accommodation costs later) have in fact been publicly demonstrated (and they have). Do we as of yet have the scientific acumen to explain how things are set on fire at a distance without so much as touching them? Or to explain how a master pours molten lead his mouth before spitting it out as solid (but still very hot to the touch)? Or laying hands on students who are NOT physically conditioned while pellets are shot into their belly, only for them to escape without a scratch?
Oh and the coins (both of them) were folded in half, ending up looking like deformed/folded (albeit THICK) aluminum... and for a moment, extremely hot to the touch.
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You agree that yes, they are examples of biology and physics, but it's Qi that makes them possible, because Qi is what makes everything possible. That doesn't strike you as a catch 22?
That strikes you as a catch 22 how? Whatever happened to "everything is energy"? And by that definition, since "qi" and "energy" are so readily interchangeable, wouldn't that equate to "everything is qi" (sidenote: The latter is the phrase I prefer using, as again, I think "energy" as a physics-term is a metric rather than an object) and thence the biological processes - going the route of certain laws of physics - being precisely that: qi in action, since they are all inclusive to this "everything"?
My friend, the idea that qi has PHYSICAL aspects is not something I've pulled out of my a$$, nor is this my interpretation. I've been blessed to get into touch with masters of various lineages who all agree, qi can be just as physical as it can be of a higher vibratory nature.
I can understand why qi is almost exclusively associated with spirituality (especially among Westerners), since a cultivation of it does bring about automatic enhancements to one's "spiritual" abilities, psychic awakening, manifestation and so on, just as I can understand why some take qi to be nothing more than prana or, even subtler, "Reiki Energy" (a far more subtle form of qi almost exclusively associated with "spirituality").
But this is simply just qi at much higher vibrations, NOT evidence that qi can't take on more physical forms, including the one (that we cultivate during qi gong) that is relatively non-corporeal but still readily detectable even with the naked eye after enough quantities are collected in an orgone collector, emitting a white/bluish vapor-like hue (precisely what is seen coming out of the palms of a highly cultivated qi gong master during a healing).
Beyond that, there is qi that has always been understood in the Orient to be totally yang (i.e. TOTALLY physical) and completely devoid of yin. This manifests in the inanimate objects around us, your desk, our respective laptops, the bricks that make up the building we're in, the keyboard we are typing on, these are all examples of crystallized, relatively immobile yang qi.
Then there is yin qi that is totally devoid of yang. Magnetic fields, deeper levels of our subconscious (yin-body), the Epsilon aspect of our brain-waves, the "Information Field" that the magnetron you used in your "Attraction Board" taps into; these are all examples of yin qi - a field that absorbs and stores information.
Then there is yang qi that makes up living things; the difference being, that it also contains yin qi, which - being a cluster of instruction-storing field called the "Subconscious Mind" is what gives LIFE, as opposed to a yin-less piece of wood which is entirely yang.
This yin stores information that directs and instructs the body's yang qi-derived biochemical processes. Hence, there is the yang qi that our yin-body "programs" to form the cell's ATP, and there is the yang that is "programmed" to form Testosterone and its more potent version (DHT), and so on.
So yes, a lot of the terms now accepted by science can be interchangeable with the terms used in the Orient for centuries. Our yin qi-body is called the "Subconscious Mind", and the bio-chemical processes that it controls is basically just yang qi being programmed to form what is collectively called "Jing" (hence, why it's taught that exercising strengthens Jing, or certain herbs, foods or exclusively-used breathing exercises strengthen Jing in the sex organs etc.)
So your friend is right, qi (or more specifically yang qi) does manifest in (among other chemicals) the ATP, but this BY FAR does not represent the totality of what qi can take form of, and most importantly, what it does, whether in the context of basic bio-chemical processes, or giving someone surplus energy to do things I really don't think there is much point mentioning here, as you've yet to see someone walk through walls or levitate, literally.
Last edited by Arman on Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 pm; edited 8 times in total
I feel that this conversation has left me somewhat behind...
While admitting that Qi can have extraordinary effects in terms of available force, I still recommend developing one's muscles and being fit.
Regardless of whats said at the end point here, you said it yourself.
"The heaviest forces I have to move are peddling my bike."
Or something along those lines...
You clearly feel that thats not enough. You clearly want more. Consider doing more, and I wouldn't worry about losing Qi via exercise. The practical benefits will become apparent, and Qi isn't exactly going to be your woman scorned. It will come back, and practices here will only help the process.
Oh of course I would recommend developing one's muscles and being fit as well. In fact traditionally many nei jia schools wouldn't teach you ANYTHING or count you as a "closed door" student until you prove yourself physically.
Plus, a healthier body is one that makes cultivation easier
Last edited by Arman on Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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Best not to mix the two type of exercise...
) three times the bite of a Great White Shark's doesn't so much as scratch his skin.
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